Ebadi: Detente with West hasn't changed Iran human rights

Many in the international community are hoping that the recent détente between Iran and the United States could result in a peaceful resolution to the Iran nuclear controversy. Iranian Nobel Peace Prize laureate and jurist Shirin Ebadi shares those hopes – but she is far less sanguine over prospects for improving the domestic human rights situation in Iran.

Writing to the United Nations General Assembly last month, Ebadi said that the government of President Hassan Rouhani’s goodwill gestures, such as the release of human rights lawyer Nasrin Sotoudeh, “do not offset the overall continued repression and human rights violations” in Iran.

Al Jazeera interviewed Shirin Ebadi in New York on Nov. 4, the 34th anniversary of the Iranian hostage crisis. She now lives in exile in London and was visiting New York to address the U.N. General Assembly on human rights abuses in Iran. Extracts from the interview follow:
 
Al Jazeera: Are you optimistic that the recent détente between the Obama and Rouhani administration can blossom into a productive relationship between the two countries?

Shirin Ebadi: The dispute between Iran and America is over 30 years old, and it will take a long time to resolve. I want to remind you that pursuant to the constitution of Iran, the president is limited in power. The power belongs to the supreme leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran (Ali Khamenei). After Rouhani had his phone call with Obama, a number of people attacked him and threw their shoes at him upon his return to Iran. These were supporters of the supreme leader. The supreme leader later said, “I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t negotiate with America, but I don’t trust America at the same time.”

Do you think the Americans and the Europeans are making a mistake to even engage with President Rouhani or should they go straight to the supreme leader?

Obama had written to Khamenei during the Ahmadinejad era, but that outreach did not succeed. Today it seems that the pressure from sanctions has weakened the government of Iran and that they are willing to negotiate. I hope that the differences between Iran and America are resolved by negotiation. It is not to Iran’s advantage to continue to have these disputes.

President Obama famously pledged to Middle Eastern nations in his first inaugural address “that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.” Some view this thinking as wrong. They argue that the U.S. has to unclench its fist first. Do you agree?

Both the government of Iran and America must show more flexibility. For example, there is a substantial amount of money that belongs to Iran deposited during the Shah’s reign in American banks that remains here in the United States that is blocked from being returned to Iran. This money should be returned. The Iranian government has to show its good intentions, too, and stop holding protests where they trample American flags and shout anti-American mottos. It is very bad that while the Iranians speak to the United States they still maintain “Death to America Day” and use Friday prayers for anti-American mottos.

Do you think President Rouhani’s government will improve upon Iran’s human rights record?

Some Iranians thought that by electing Mr. Rouhani the human rights situation would improve, but this has not happened. The human rights situation in Iran has declined by the day. Just last week a number of Baluchis attacked a border station in Iran and killed some people. On the night that this happened, the prosecutor of the province announced on television that he had executed 16 prisoners in retaliation for their “support” of the attack.

During the second Bush Administration, the journalist Seymour Hersh wrote about clandestine U.S. operations specifically in Baluchistan designed to destabilize Iran. Do you think the Iranian regime would react so harshly against incidents like this if there was not the fear that these events were organized from abroad?

Even if they thought that this violence was the work of the CIA, the execution of 16 people who were already arrested and had nothing to do with the attack is not justified. From the day that Mr. Rouhani was elected until today, the number of prisoners executed has doubled in comparison to the same time period last year. I have signed a new report prepared by the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH) that speaks to this.

Should Americans care about these human rights abuses in Iran? After all, there is a debate in this country about what America’s role in the world should be. What do you think?

Human rights are universal. Whatever happens in one country relates to other countries as well. Those of us in Iran, for example, cannot be indifferent to the situation of women in Saudi Arabia. You who live in America cannot be indifferent when it comes to freedom of speech in Iran. The more important issue is how to get involved. Human rights and democracy cannot be brought by bombs brought upon someone’s head. They cannot be exported to another country with weapons.

Women are no longer able to serve as judges in Iran as you did before the revolution. Do you expect to see any changes in Iran on the professional limitations that women face?

After the revolution, numerous discriminatory laws were passed against women. One of them was that women could not be judges. Yet, the women’s movement is very strong in Iran. Over 60 percent of university student are women in Iran.

A lot of people would be truly surprised to read this statistic. Why are there so many more female students than men in Iranian universities?

One of the reasons that more women attend university than men is that women find university as a place to escape social limitations. Getting into universities in Iran means passing an entrance exam, and women generally do better. Men in Iran often prefer to seek employment over education.

You say you support Iran’s right to a nuclear program, why is that?

Nuclear energy is the right of every country including Iran. Still, Iran’s national interest is not in nuclear energy. There is a lot of oil and natural gas in Iran. We also have an abundance of sunshine and can pursue solar energy, but up to now not even a dollar has been invested!

You have been living in exile for four years. Do you feel in exile you are still able to influence the movement for human rights in Iran?

In exile I can be more useful to Iran since human rights activity in Iran is impossible. When I am outside the country I can be the speaker of people who have been silenced by censorship.

Do you feel that winning the Nobel Prize brought you more problems in that it made you a target for those who opposed you?

The Nobel Prize gave me a microphone to the world, but this louder voice resulted in more enmity from the Iranian government against me. From the beginning of the revolution, the government had issues with me. I had once even came across an order for my murder from the Ministry of Intelligence. The Nobel Prize made the situation harsher. 

In 2008, my NGO was closed down, and from 2009 onwards I have not been able to go back to Iran. I am now under criminal prosecution, my colleagues are in prison and the government has confiscated all my property. Since I was not in Iran when an order was issued for my arrest, they arrested my husband and my sister instead. Under severe torture, they made my husband appear on television to speak against me and claim that I was spying for America. This is the price that I have paid for my human rights activities. I took this path being aware of what could happen to me. I am very sorry, though, that some of my colleagues are in prison.

It was reported that the actual Nobel medallion was taken from you. Has that been returned?

All of my property was confiscated, including my safety box at my bank. The Nobel medallion was in that safety box. As a result of the protest of Norway, my medallion was returned. Everything else, including my personal documents that had no financial value, was taken.