Abe Foxman talks to David Shuster

David Shuster: You recently completed a survey that found nearly 26 percent of adults worldwide harbor anti-Semitic views. What's your reaction?

Abe Foxman: Twenty-six is a lot. My reaction was not surprised. I wish I was surprised. It's sobering — coming to grips with a certain reality, how deep anti-Semitism continues to infect our society globally. It's distressing.

You asked each person 11 questions and then measured based on how many they responded to a certain way. What were some of the questions you asked?

Well, we tried to distill what are some anti-Semitic canards, stereotypes throughout history, and put them into question form, and then ask the individuals whether they agree or they disagree, and how they feel about it. The questions basically were on issues that have plagued and haunted the Jewish people.

One is a question of trust, of loyalty. Can you trust the Jews? That's been an issue throughout history for the Jewish people, always seen as the outsider. "You can't trust them. They're not loyal." Then the issue of money, too, is historically tied for many good reasons, and mostly bad reasons — that the Jews are involved with money.

"They control finance. Then they want to control government. They're not good neighbors. They only care about themselves." We tried to be conservative. We tried to be as credible as possible. We said, "Look, if you answer six of those — let's say one question is stronger than another, another question is more indicative — but if you answer six, any six, whoa, you're an anti-Semite."

You know, if you quack like a duck, act like a duck, walk like a duck, you're a duck. People with three attitudes — three of those yeses, or five — are anti-Semites. But we try to be as cautious and as conservative, saying, "If you say the majority, you agree with the majority of anti-Semitic canards, you're a bigot."

The greatest prevalence of anti-Semitism, according to the survey, was in the Middle East and North Africa. In the West Bank and Gaza, some 93 percent held such views. How much of this, however, has to do with Israel's foreign policy?

Let me preface it a moment. The most determinant factor turned out to be not religion but region, geography. What we found is by region, you can almost predict the level. The Middle East and North Africa scored the highest. In my heart of hearts, I believe that attitudes towards Israel do impact attitudes towards Jews.

I also believe that attitudes toward Jews tend to impact on attitudes towards Israel. But having said that, our survey does not give us any evidence, any statistical evidence to say that attitudes towards Israel determine or are a cause of anti-Semitism or that anti-Semitism is a cause of anti-Israel.

Having said that, Israel — the Arab-Israel conflict does play. Certainly it plays in the Middle East. Because it's part and parcel. But you've had anti-Semitism in the Middle East before the establishment of the state of Israel. You have it in countries that have made peace with Israel. Egypt — Egypt has received all its territory. Jordan has received all its [territory]. There are peace treaties. So Israel should not be an issue. Yet anti-Semitism continues to be high.

In South Korea, 53 percent have anti-Semitic views. Laos, only 1 percent. 

I mean, we promise to give you the data, not the whys. I don't know about South Korea. Wow. You know, there is an explanation. It's one explanation. This is my explanation. A lot of the anti-Semitism in parts of the world was brought by missionaries. Depends on what missionaries, how they taught the Christian mission. Was it anti-Jewish? Was it pro-Christian?

It may well be that that's where it came from. Some of the anti-Semitism was brought into Japan and other countries by American troops who brought their Western anti-Semitism when they came to either save or conquer the country. There's reason now to go back and see why and what we learned from it.

Greece is one of the most anti-Semitic countries in Europe. What do you attribute that to?

It’s very difficult to find the specifics. I think one of the reasons that we can turn to is the economic instability, the political instability. And there is a political party called Golden Dawn, which recently was made illegal but for a long time was out there, actively not only anti-immigrant, not only anti-Muslim, but also anti-Jewish, and anti-Semitic. We're finding this — if you will, a new phenomenon in Europe. You have [in Europe] nationalist parties opposed to immigration, opposed to the other — which includes Jews, Muslims — who are against the unified Europe yet fielding candidates for the European parliament. What brings them together is their nativism, is their populism, which is anti-immigrant and anti-Semitic. 

There's also a lot of instability in Ukraine. Is that a place that's feeding into some of this?

It is. Yes, wherever you see political or economic instability, you will see prejudice. The end of prejudice, unfortunately, historically has been the Jews. You're now finding the Jewish issue being played by both Ukrainians and Russians.

Your survey found that half of the respondents had heard of the Holocaust. In other words, half had not. Did that surprise you? 

I think 54 percent after 70 years is a relatively significant number, although most people say half the world not to know about the Holocaust is serious. I would say 54 percent of adults knowing about it is OK.

What's troubling is that 1 out of 3 of those, 32, 33 percent, believe that it's a myth or that it's been exaggerated. It's not a question of their ignorance. They're aware of it. Yet they reject it as Jewish propaganda. I find that troubling.

But there's also a certain element of the population, I suppose, if you did the survey, that would reject that Hiroshima ever happened or that man ever landed on the moon. 

There's always going to be some percentage that's going to think this never happened.

Yeah, but I don't think it's a third. Hiroshima was horrendous. People landing on the moon was great. But this was six years of a genocide. And, you know, the amount of movies, the amount of books, the amount of discussions, not to be aware?

I understand that the survey is the first time you've surveyed all of these countries. But do you have any anecdotal suggestions or evidence that anti-Semitism is getting worse in parts of the world?

I would say yes. I think we did the survey because so much of our knowledge and information was anecdotal or came in newspaper reports, and some surveys, and law enforcement reports. Our feeling was that since the year 2000, 2001, at the turn of the new millennium, something was happening and that anti-Semitism was becoming more legitimate, more acceptable, more open.

I would say that anti-Semitism globally is the worst that it has been since World War II. Not like it was in World War II, no. Absolutely not. But since World War II, it has not been at such a high level. And what we're seeing is not only is it at a high level, but it's pervasive. It's almost everywhere. 

You look at democracies and educating children, and of course the United States comes to mind. According to the survey that you've been doing of the United States since 1964, back then 29 percent harbored anti-Semitic views. Today, 9 percent. What do you attribute in the United States to that drop?

I attribute it to an openness in the society. I attribute it to legislation. Look, this was a country with Jim Crow. It was OK to segregate. It was OK to discriminate against blacks and certainly Jews. There are issues of Hispanics. There are issues of the LGBT community. I think this country has come a long way in its learning — its pilgrimage to come to grips with who we are.

We were bigots. We've learned. We started with — I think education. Then there was legislation. Then there was litigation. Now, take a look. The level of anti-Semitism in the United States is lower. And yet our Constitution, our first amendment permits you to be a bigot, even gives you a right to be.

We'll fight for your right to be a bigot. In Europe, on the other hand, you have legislation. Legislation against anti-Semitism, against Holocaust denial, against racism, against Islamophobia. And yet you still have a greater level of anti-Semitism. Why? The difference is the culture. The difference is the environment. In this country, while the law permits you to be a bigot, you will pay a price if you are a bigot. Society will make you pay a price. Look at [Donald] Sterling, OK? Look at what's happening to him. Here, he was a bigot in private. And yet our society says, "Unh-uh. If you wanna play in our culture" — We saw it with Mel Gibson. We see it with politicians. We see it with businesspeople. So while this country, yeah, you have a right to be a bigot, at the same time, if you are a bigot, you're gonna pay a price because our society doesn't tolerate it.

The survey found that there's also pretty high unfavorability of Muslims, while for Jews, favorable-unfavorable was 38 to 21 percent.  Muslims, 47 percent favorable, 24 percent unfavorable. Were you surprised?

No, because I've always known and understood bigotry is not unidimensional. People who hate Jews hate others. And sometimes they'll hate Muslims. They'll hate Hispanics. They'll hate African-Americans. If you're a bigot, you're a bigot.

Given those very strong, passionate views that you have, it struck a lot of people as surprising when 51 Park Place, the Muslim center, was set to open two and a half blocks from Ground Zero — it was supposed to be a mosque and a community center, and you opposed it. How come?

I didn't oppose it. People didn't bother to read what we said.

What did you say?

Our statement basically said, "They have a right. They have a legal right. They have a constitutional right. In fact, they've exhausted all the vehicles to establish their right. But just because you have the right doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do."

And we raised the question: If this is — Park 51 was supposed to be — an initiative of reconciliation, of opening bridges of understanding, if that's what you want to do, why are you doing it in a place where the people that you want to reach out to say to you, "Don't do it. This is our cemetery. We don't want to do it here —"

But it wasn't a cemetery.  It's —

Well, to those people —

two and a half blocks away.

Yeah, but that's what it was perceived to be.

Right, but don't we all have an obligation to correct perceptions that are wrong? I mean, if you look at the things that exist two and a half blocks from where this Muslim center was supposed to be, when I went there recently, there was a Bank of America, there's a Catholic church, there's a subway stop, there's a French hair salon where you can get a $25 blow-dry special. Any one of those could be considered offensive.

You're right. It was hijacked. It was hijacked by politicians. It was hijacked by bigots. And the people themselves who weren't sure what they wanted. They, too, played it every which way.

Our position was "You have a right." Listen, as a result of that, if you will, what surfaced was, in America, was the fact that there were mosques being denied their right to be mosques because they were mosques, because they were Muslims and that they were being denied zoning. They were denied their constitutional rights. And because this issue …

Wait, you're taking credit for the fact that people —

No, I'm not taking credit. I'm just saying you're challenging my position. I'm saying to you we said they have a right. But at the same time, because this controversy raised the issue publicly that there was discrimination, we put together a coalition of Muslims and Christians, and we have been in the courts several years fighting for their right to build mosques.

You've been with the organization for 50 years. What are your proudest achievements over this period of time?

It'll be 50 years next July. So I have not yet gone into the introspective phase of trying to determine what were my greatest moments, what were my saddest moments. 

I've been very lucky. I've been privileged to spend my adult life fighting that which on one hand almost destroyed me, the Holocaust, which was anti-Semitism, and at the same time building bridges of understanding, of reconciliation, of interfaith, of interethnic. I survived because there was a Catholic woman who risked her life to save me. So to be able to earn a living for almost 50 years fighting bigotry, fighting anti-Semitism, trying to build bridges of understanding and sensitivity to each other, wow. 

You were lucky in a sense just in your childhood that you had a Catholic family that essentially protected you and shielded you from the Holocaust.

Yes. Very lucky to have a nanny who said to my parents, "Won't last long. I'll take him." It lasted four years. She baptized me, gave me a false existence, risked her life for every single day for four years, and indirectly saved my parents. Because my parents were able to separate. Their goal was to survive, to come back for me. They survived, came back for me. We were reunited. I was lucky.

Looking forward, if you had the ability to, you know, live another, say, 70 years, where do you think the world will be with anti-Semitism 70 years from now?

Well, we just commemorated 100 years — the ADL. We made a great deal of progress. But I guess the saddest thing is that — if there is still an ADL going in 101 years. The saddest thing to me is that I fear that my grandchildren are going to need an ADL.

This interview has been edited and condensed.